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Product recall argument daft
Friday 17th of April 2009
I was hoping not to write about the ING credit funds for a while – or at least until their restructuring proposal is published – however some of the commentary in the industry has encouraged me to revisit what’s happening.
Also I was thinking there is a similarity between the attention Tony Veitch had over bashing his former partner and ING. What similarity you may wonder? Well it seems to me Veitch has had a disproportionate coverage of his dreadful assault, as has ING over its credit funds.
ING isn’t the only institution which has suffered massive losses in credit funds. Look at Credit Sails – it recently said its notes were worthless. Fortress Notes aren’t much better. There is a host of other failures, but have they had the same level of attention that ING has had? The answer, as you know, is no.
Next is this barmy argument that there should be a “product recall” and ING should pay investors par for their DYF and RIF units. Sorry, credit funds aren’t like washing machines or toasters (well you could argue the money goes around and around or gets burnt, but I think you know what I mean with this comparison).
The funds were never marketed as riskless.
I also have some concerns over the comments about research. There are two points. The first is someone who has an axe to grind with a research house is using this story for that purpose, yet there is little disclosure about that. When you read some of the stuff out there just pause for a minute and think about who is behind it and their past and that will help you put things into perspective.
Secondly, I’m afraid advisers can’t hide behind some report from a research house and say we put money into such-and-such a fund as that’s what we were told to do.
Advisers must do their own research and be satisfied with what they see and do. Basic risk reward theory tells you that if a fixed interest investment is going to return a net 200 points more than the bank bill rate then there must be quite a bit more risk in the fund. Yes, it is probably not a low risk investment as touted.
To go around and blame everyone else and not take responsibility for your own advice is unacceptable in a profession.
My final point is that ING and ANZ are stumping up with maybe as much as half a billion dollars to sort out the issue. Sure they were too slow to do it, but hey, that’s a lot of money in anyone’s terms. Show me another organisation which is prepared to put that much into a problem investment like this.
To put it into perspective one of ING’s strongest critics described the offer ING is making as “terrific”. Pity some advisers can’t see it for what it is.
Comments (5)
Austin Fisher
Surely selling high risk investments to low-risk customers is the most reprehensible of crimes in our industry?
Between them, ING and ANZ have misled the public over these investments because they turned out to be much, much riskier than what was said in the product material and the promotional items. Words on official documentation are not airy-fairy waffle. They are regulated and legally signed off, so that the public should be protected from misleading statements.
So given that the statements made were not true, why doesn't the might of New Zealand securities legislation require ING to do the right thing?
If they hadn't written all that low-risk stuff on their signed off material, I'd have the same opinion as Phil. But they said it was low risk because they wanted lots of lovely funds under management. And ooh look, with the margins they can make on fees, they can even afford to pay Advisers and ANZ to flog it. What could possibly go wrong? Erm...
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15 years ago
Richard Amery
Hey, come on, you guys- any investment which ever failed can easily be attacked in hindsight on the basis that the adviser should have known better, or that it was not properly explained by it's creators- that's almost the definition of a failed investment!
High time we put aside all this hindsight stuff and look at reality as we saw it back in 2003?
I am an independent adviser with no ties to anyone, much less ING, and when I first investigated using this product with my clients I looked into it as well as any of us did at the time, and like most of my fellow advisers, was much reassured by a good independent rating for this type of investment. It looked to me like a hell of a good deal for clients who were currently investing in Finance companies, and that's what it was.
I also asked ING what it would take to have a major fall in value and they said it would take a major financial collapse internationally for this to happen (and guess what?)
They also cautioned quite specifically that it should not be considered as an alternative to a bank savings account, but instead was more like a better diversified substitute for investing in all those un-rated NZ finance companies.
They further told me that it was low to moderate risk and stressed that it should only be used as a percentage of a client's fixed interest portfolio.
I can't comment on what ANZ advisers told their clients, but I am pretty sure that AT THAT TIME (ie before the major financial collapse came to pass) the above was pretty close to how most of us independent advisers understood the product to be, even though I don't think any of us fully understood exactly how it worked.
And yes, I believe that, like me, most financial advisers would have placed a lot of faith in the product advice given by what is after all by far the biggest and most successful fund management company New Zealand clients can deal with! On top of ING's reputation, I am sure that few advisers would have looked any further for confirmation of quality than the highly trusted (AT THAT TIME) independent rating agency- after all, let's not forget that that's what they exist for!
Accordingly, in my view, AT THE TIME everyone in the financial services industry would have agreed that, given a good independent rating, it was a safer and more diversified investment than investing over a handful of similar earning but unrated NZ finance companies, and I doubt that any client who brought the product on that basis would now be bad mouthing ING, ANZ or their adviser. After all, getting virtually all your original investment back (and possibly more) after another five years without any interest is a lot better than 10 cents in the dollar now from Bridgecorp.
However, it's also my opinion that it would have been patently wrong for any financial adviser to have been recommending this product as having a similar risk factor to a trading bank term deposit or call account, based on what was known at the time, and they would now deserve everything their clients choose to throw at them, including being sued for the balance of their investment over and above what ING/ANZ are going to pay out.
Just as should be the case with any investor who invested in unrated NZ finance companies, if they were not told by their adviser that a good percentage of them would be certain to default over time.
And yes, in case you are wondering, I too have a pile of money tied up in DYF, but unlike some others, I am delighted that ING/ANZ have been prepared to stump up a big pile of money to help get us all out of a hole they didn’t cause- as Phil says, they didn't have to do that, and should be applauded in the way that they are supporting their advisers and clients.
Let’s leave it to the group of possibly mis-sold ANZ clients to pursue what may well be a win-able cause against the bank, but please, why don’t we impendent advisers just put this behind us and get on with restoring investor confidence so that we all have a business to look forward to going forward?
Could the members of the current adviser vendetta driving an orchestrated campaign to try and harm ING please stop and consider what effect their efforts are having on our funds management industry and on the businesses of the majority of us advisers who have no such axe to grind?
You did a great job in getting a great offer from ANZ/ING, but don’t risk alienating your fellow advisers against you and our clients against us in the pursuit of even more!
And in terms of getting your and your clients money back with interest,
who knows, by being patient things may come right and we may eventually even get back all the years of interest we will have lost as well...
Yeah, Right.
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15 years ago
Philip Macalister
Thanks for the comments guys. Here are a couple of points in response.
No I am not being cantankerous!!!! Rather suggesting that everyone has to take some blame on this issue. Fund manager, research houses and advisers.
There is also an interesting point about this product which has implications on the debate. That is the funds were sold through intermediaries with advice and also "over-the-counter" at the bank.
With the former advisers would be foolish to say they relied on the fund manager marketing material in making their recommendations. Advisers needed to do their own research and decide on the merits or otherwise of the products. Perhaps some got lazy or found other attractions about these funds?
I would love to meet an adviser who truly, 100% understood how CDO funds worked, and what the impact on these products would be in various different market conditions.
I sat through plenty of presentations from different managers and each time came away with the feeling; sounds good, but I don't quite understand how they work. Anyone else have that feeling?
Also it seems that some have forgotten that there is a major crisis in credit markets of proportions not often seen, and that will have an impact on investments. Indeed it is possible to suggest that with a new-fangled; highly engineered product like this no one would have modelled what would happen in the current type of environment.
I think that advisers and investors can be heartily congratulated for getting ING/ANZ to increase its offer. The first offer was sub-standard. The latest looks much better. This came about through adviser/investor pressure, plus willingness from the company to listen.
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15 years ago
Michael Donovan
As one of the 'grandfathers' of the NZ financial planning profession, having commenced mid 1980's to build one of NZ's largest financial planning companies,in 2001 I had my business 'stolen' off me by the 'head' however I did win my high court case against him, proving my rights.
My point here is that one of the reasons given at the time of 'stealing' of my business was that I was appearing to do much of my own research and monitoring, rather than just accept the so-called research and monitoring that the company was claiming to have done to save us advisers the trouble...!
I had become increasingly unsatisfied with the performances of portfolios for our range of mostly conservative investor clients, and had proven that my own research had resulted in less volatile performances.
I have been concerned for many years now about the real motives behind the choices by many advisers for their respective clients, and have at the same time held back from any slanging of my peers in the profession.
The current ING debarcle is a sad yet at the same time "storm that was waiting for the right conditions" (or is the wrong conditions?).
I agree with many of the contributors who suggest that most advisers (certified or not) would not actually know very much about the actual "mechanics" of the managed funds they use..!
One of the sad facts which I am well aware of is that the larger advisery companies have an inherent curse of sorts in that they need to use managed funds in order to be able to supply their large-number client base with enough diversified investments.
Further, in their quest to provide the supposed diversification range, the advisers inevitably end up having an ever-increasing number of funds to offer, so naturally they need to do an ever-increasing amount of good research, but the trouble is, the job is just too big.
The natural remedy has been the "magic capitalistic markets" which (like those houses for Blue Chip) just seemed to have a continued (albeit a little bumpy) ride upwards, and this tended to lull the advisers into using their age-old comfort to clients to "hang in there, because it wasn't me who dropped your value--it was the markets, and they always rise again...!"
Well, most times, the adviser was supported in a relatively short time-frame, and those magic markets did rise again and the investors again thought the adviser had earned their monitoring fees.
This time, we have seen the biggest and most protracted market falls since grandad's days, and that is what is behind most of the pain, for investors AND for advisers who must field worried calls every day by the dozens.
An answer from my perspective may be to all become smaller businesses,(contrary to the current suggestion to team together to become bigger) because I have found that smaller businesses do not have to succumbe to using huge numbers of managed funds, and if they do use them, they can intermingle them with a larger proportions of direct, usually SECURED deposits/investments.
Therefore,we are now seeing the results of the horse having bolted, and all trying to lay blame on others, an often natural human response.
The blame is multiple, however it must fall more on the relevant adviser/s unfortunately, because they are the very "in-between" who the investors relied on to know more than them...!
Most advisers are brainwashed into believing that they are not capable of being "trend-pickers" and that is a worry.
Eg: Would it be more risky to buy a house now, or 3 or 4 years ago (at the peak)? The answer is two-fold depending on your expectations (a) less risky if you wanted protection from huge value-falls or (b) more risky if you expect immediate high value-rises like yesteryear.
So this can demonstrate an ability to "pick trends..!"
The relevance is in the question, "what degree of 'trend-picking' did the relevant advisers use when choosing CDO's or Hedge funds or Blue Chip house funds.
To finish, who can pick the trend with the most potential for capital gains (or losses) in bond funds, in relation to future interest-rate "trends"..? The advisers need to accept their relative resposibilities because that is what the mum's and dad's hire them for.
That is why I had NO clients in any finance companies, nor Blue chip, nor ING CDO's or any managed funds and so on. Nor do I currently have ANY in Bond funds.
No-one gets each investment right all the time of course, but "trends" are relatively easy to pick...!
The advisers are to be answerable for their portfolio choices, and if they are not comfortable with their product knowledge, how can they expect their investors to be?
The easy (but not the acceptable remedy) is to be a wimp and sell out instead of sticking it out with your investors (and your loyal advisers if you head a large company). The real advisers will stay with it, admit their wrong trend-picking and inferior research, and help their clients to re-coup losses with some good trend-picking..! More gains can be made in a recession than in boom times, ask someone like Mr Trump, one of the best 'trend-pickers' around.
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15 years ago
Clayton Coplestone
My take on this discussion:
Product Manufacturer - if this product was appropriately marketed, without misrepresentation (either mischievously or innocently), with adequate risk disclosures, then the manufacturer can sleep easy. The fact that they have offered a ‘compensation’ deal infers that the manufacturer is not sleeping easy, and that further research may unveil some issues. I suspect that potential problems may be discovered in the accurate valuation of the underlying CDOs and the accuracy of the unit price (ie: it is possible that some unit-holders were unfairly advantaged over others). It would be unwise for clients to accept any ‘deals’ that remove avenues for recourse until the history of the products had been adequately inspected.
Intermediaries – the phrases “I didn’t understand the product or its risks” or “I relied upon the unblemished history of the manufacturer” are not a defense. The act of charging a client for investment advice infers that adequate research was conducted by the intermediary, who had a sound knowledge of the product and its appropriateness for the client. The intermediary’s defense of this position is further questionable if they had any aligned interest with the manufacturer. For those intermediaries in this position it may pay to seek independent legal advice now.
Clients –Whilst it can be argued that the intermediary is accountable for any investment advice received, clients have a responsibility to understand whether this advice is appropriate for their circumstances. In the absence of understanding, it is reasonable for the client to take no action until such a time that they are comfortable with what they are being advised to do.
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15 years ago
2 min read